Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

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Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 19:57

Hier kommt mal eine Kopie aus der CarcC.
Just a Bill hat geschrieben: * As of this writing, “minimal C2” probably means things with new gameplay: abbots, gardens, circus elements, and/or the gingerbread man.

I'm starting with a poll to try to identify the basic different views people have and get a sense of the proportions, but what this thread is really about is my own evolving response to the artwork change.

I started out as a C1 Purist and had no intention of buying any of the new stuff (for multiple reasons). But two things caused me to reevaluate: a cheap price on the new base game, which I've had for a few weeks now, and the continuing good reports on the gameplay worthiness of Under the Big Top, which I just picked up yesterday from my FLGS. And yesterday is when I decided I must actually be a C1 Converter instead.

In this thread I'll be dumping out some work-in-progress examples of my evolving attempts to convert garden, circus, and acrobat tiles to a C1 art aesthetic, for discussion and critique. (But don't expect a downloadable Big Top tileset; more on that later.) Along the way, I'll probably have some related legal/philosophical thoughts.
Christianmocking hat geschrieben: Cool. Look forward to seeing that!


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Paul hat geschrieben: I replied Dual-moder.

But in general, I could play using v1, v2, Ark, South, Discovery etc etc in a single game if I'm drunk enough. >:D
ny1050220 hat geschrieben: I'm not sure if I fit in any of of purist/converter/preferrer definition, so I chose other.
Right now, the "playable" version of my game is in C1. So, practically I'm a C1 purist. But... I do have very limited C2 expansions, i.e., Japanese temples and labyrinth, never played. And I am seriously planning on getting C2 when there is a big box available with "good" expansions (in my discretion) and when I have enough space for all of my junk at home.
That said, I probably will not buy C2 in the near future, but ultimately I see myself owning both versions. It's just like an entry in the bucket list. I'm gonna do it, one by one, just not all of them all at once.
Just a Bill hat geschrieben:
ny1050220 hat geschrieben: ultimately I see myself owning both versions.
Would you play both? If so, then depending on whether you would play them separately or together, I'd say that makes you (ultimately) either a Dual-Moder or a Mix/Matcher.
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 19:59

Just a Bill hat geschrieben: My "C1 Converter" attempt at Gardens

My initial attempt at making C1 garden tiles was very simple and obvious (I posted more on this in another thread about speculating/fantasizing on what HiG could give us as kind of a last-ditch C1 promo set).



But this really isn't the right approach. In that thread, thodekey was encouraging about my efforts but pointed out that the mixture of the two styles just doesn't look right. And I quite agree. So after that, I started looking for elements in C1 that I could turn into a garden, and discovered that there already was a full garden (albeit a large, palacial one) on my Bentheim Castle tile:


So I hacked that around a bit, adding more trees, reorganizing it, and crunching it down into a somewhat more generic, slightly less "royal" kind of garden. It's nowhere near perfect, but at least the fountain is gone and it is definitely in the C1 art style. I'm still mulling over whether I think this idea is good enough or not to warrant spending the time to try homebrewing the tiles.

Halfling hat geschrieben: Halfling is a Mix/matcher. I just want to play. Aesthetics be damned.
TheSteveAllen hat geschrieben:
Halfling hat geschrieben: Halfling is a Mix/matcher. I just want to play. Aesthetics be damned.
I tend to agree with you halfling, but I do try and use one or the other style if at all possible, but if I want to play 'Under the Big Top' and 'The Catapult' together (as has been suggested elsewhere), I don't think that the fact that one is only available in C1 style and that the other is only available in C2 style stop me. In other words, as you said, "I just want to play Carcassonne".

:(y)
thodekey hat geschrieben:
Just a Bill hat geschrieben: My "C1 Converter" attempt at Gardens

In that thread, thodekey was encouraging about my efforts but pointed out that the mixture of the two styles just doesn't look right. And I quite agree. So after that, I started looking for elements in C1 that I could turn into a garden, and discovered that there already was a full garden (albeit a large, palacial one) on my Bentheim Castle tile:
Well, Just a Bill, I agree on this one: that garden matches way better the C1-artwork! Another CC-member also made a beautiful variant with apple orchards, sunflower fields and lavender-fields but I can't seem to find it back. (or was it a dream?) :yellow-meeple:
Another possibility could be to just add the vineyard from Hills and Sheep and use it in the same way as a garden?

Hmmm, reading my comment again: I guess, I revealed myself as a C1 purist. ;D
Never say never, but I don't feel like buying the C2 stuff: I got rather late in the C1-artwork and then rushed into buying all that was still available for a fair price. When I almost succeeded there...they bring up the new artwork. Being a purist in my job and mind, mixing those 2 artworks, just doesn't work for me. To conclude: in the end, it's not even a matter of wether I prefer the C1 or C2 artwork (ok, I admit it: I prefer the C1 but nevertheless...)...I just don't like the idea of mixing 2 artwork styles and if that would mean that I had to buy everything again in the new artwork to match with the newest expansions...well, then I prefer to spend that money on other games.

So, in the end: honestly, I'm a bit relieved the C1 artwork came to an end...the C1 stuff I have has enough variation to keep a Carcassonne game fresh, interesting and...free from artwork mix-ups. :P. The Tunnel, Cathar and Crop Circle 1 expansions still missing from my collection are in that way more of a Holy Grail then something I absolutely need for variation.
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 20:31

wolnic hat geschrieben: The garden artwork you mention for CarcI originated on the German Carc Forum. There were several different designs used.

There has also been a recent thread about gaining permission, from the publishers, for the forum to fan release (as download PDF/PNG files) a limited number of commercial expansions in the "other" artwork style. For example producing the Abbot/Gardens and Watchtowers in CarcI style, but this may extend to other expansions such as "Under The Big Top". A significant amount of effort has gone into getting this sorted out.
wolnic hat geschrieben: I'm dual mode, but definitely not never ever "together".

I began with CarcII, but once I began to develop my own tiles/expansions, I needed to get hold of CarcI as well. I'm a player, not a collector, so I don't need to collect everything - and most have been punched. As a tile designer/developer I'm more interested in what I can cannibalise so have been selective what I've bought. From that creative point of view, the original artwork is, I feel, easier to work with. And there were (a year ago) loads more expansions in the old artwork (official and fan) to use and adapt. I don't see myself buying any of the expansions (P&D or later) for CarcII.

Depending on the type/size of game we decide we want to play, we'll pick either CarcI, CarcII or Winter, as I have a different set of expansions/tiles available for each (other than base game, I&C, T&B and river).
ny1050220 hat geschrieben:
Just a Bill hat geschrieben:
ny1050220 hat geschrieben: ultimately I see myself owning both versions.
Would you play both? If so, then depending on whether you would play them separately or together, I'd say that makes you (ultimately) either a Dual-Moder or a Mix/Matcher.
OK, in that sense, I'm a dual-moder. I really want to see the expansions now exclusive for one version being available someday for the other, even if being fan-made, so that I don't have to mix them, 'cause I don't want to do that.
Just a Bill hat geschrieben:
thodekey hat geschrieben: Another possibility could be to just add the vineyard from Hills and Sheep and use it in the same way as a garden?
Yep, I've considered that too, and may try it the next time I play.
thodekey hat geschrieben: So, in the end: honestly, I'm a bit relieved the C1 artwork came to an end...the C1 stuff I have has enough variation to keep a Carcassonne game fresh, interesting and...free from artwork mix-ups.
Have to admit I felt this way too ... and then I went and ruined it all by buying the C2 base game on sale. ::)

And now some of the boring legal/philosophical stuff I warned about.

Initially I did not want to "support" C2 financially. In every part of our lives (food, housing, transportation, entertainment...), I think it's important to use our wallet to vote for the quality we want. If we don't do that, we train companies that they can feed us any old crap (high-fructose corn syrup, Hewlett-Packard home printers, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace) and we will still pay for it. When something we love changes in a way that it stops being what we want/need, for some of us there is the hope that if we don't support the new version of the thing, maybe they will go back to the old version. But often this is a foolish hope.

But of course, setting aside the controversial artwork changes, the "supplementalization" of farming to become optional, and the issues with the style, accuracy, and organization of the new rulebooks, there are some good things about C2. The visual overhaul appears to be bringing in some new players, and the new expansion mechanics thus far seem positive — positive enough that I want to play them. And so arises the ethical question a person in my shoes must face: buy the thing I want but don't really want to support, or homebrew it? Ultimately I think I must support it. HiG/KJW created some new gameplay that looks like it will have value to me, and I should pay for the privilege to own it just like everyone else.

But having decided to let them have my dollars after all (dangit), I still don't want to mix the art styles. So I'm becoming a "converter" (or at least trying to). I have no guilt about this since I have actually purchased, new, the two C2 products I want to play. Because of that, creating alternate art for myself in no way infringes on HiG's intellectual property or causes them to lose a sale — as long as I don't distribute it. And this point is pretty important.

Hence my comment above about not posting a downloadable Big Top tileset when I'm finished. When discussing copyrights and trademarks, people often make ignorant statements like, "But I'm not selling anything!" However, the legal protections aren't about profit; they are about distribution. We're not allowed to distribute materials that would infringe on anyone else's IP, regardless of the benefit (or lack) to ourselves. If we make available for distribution a knock-off item that causes even one person to use the knock-off instead of buying the actual thing, then we have robbed the IP holder of a sale; and that's not right.

So if and until there is some kind of permission from HiG to post such things, I think we need to be careful about posting downloadable, print-ready alternative tiles that directly compete with product they are trying to sell. We should restrict what we put up to only a few limited examples, and they should be in low resolution.
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 21:08

Just a Bill hat geschrieben: My "C1 Converter" attempt at Circus tiles

Again, I want my replacement tiles to "look and feel" like the rest of classic Carcassonne, and probably the best way to do that is by finding C1 elements that fit the tile's purpose. So everything you see on the tile on the right comes from some classic Carcassonne tile somewhere (well, except the watermark; I fabricated that).
Comparison600.png
Here I'm not actually trying to create an element-for-element conversion (for example, I'm making no effort to represent all the various small items, or the tent poles lying on the ground). I'm happy if I just get kinda close to the right feel and the tile's gameplay purpose is unmistakably clear.

I realize my tile is too visually busy; either there are too many elements, or too many colors, or both. This isn't intended to be a finished design, just a proof of concept. Basically I was trying to see if I could come up with a suitable variety of tents without them seeming too repetitive (the siege/besiegers tiles use a very limited number of tent shapes).

Unfortunately some of the tents are a little blurry; I'm still lacking the Besiegers tiles and thus can't make a high-res scan.
Carcatronn hat geschrieben: Dang guys, you've stepped up your game here! Really keeping C1 alive :))

You now have gotten me wanting to do all the garden tiles and circus tiles with this art. Oh boy ::)
Willem88 hat geschrieben: I have got my C1 collection about as complete as i can/want, and i have all the C2 expansions as well, that we sometimes use in our C1 games. I must say i have admitted to ordering a C2 game, and the 2017 big box is looking very seductive at me...
But we will probably play the versions separate, mixing in sometimes if we want certain expansions. We do this with the winter edition (sometimes) already
Just a Bill hat geschrieben: My "C1 Converter" attempt at Acrobat tiles
Comparison2-600.png
Again, I have too many elements here. Just spamming the tile to see what does and doesn't look good. I did this acrobat tile first so I could start to find out whether or not I can live with my hacked garden symbol. The jury's still out....
ARabidMeerkat hat geschrieben: Just A Bill... This is brilliant! Merit for you!
Elfew hat geschrieben: Our member @Chmura from the Czech Carcassonne forum made Circus for CC1 few months ago - it is brilliant, just check it yourself :)

https://www.carcassonneforum.cz/thread-1390.html (you must be logged in for viewing attachments). Here is a small preview :)

P.S. It is not my work, created by @Chmura!
Safari hat geschrieben: Hi guys,

I just found out about your converting discussion here. Several weeks ago CarcF could stipulate an agreement with HiG about doing conversions between classic Carc and Carc II. Beforehand we had a long discussion if we could comit a copyright infringement when we convert real expansions, especially if we talk about big ones. So in order to be on the safe side PresetM negotiated an agreement with HiG.

It consists of eight points and you can find it here (unfortunatlely only in German and for registered users) if you want to read it. The most important point is that we are only allowed to do two conversions per half year and have to inform HiG about our conversion plans. Also the final version of the expansion has to be approved by the publisher. There are even some restraints on where the expansions can be downloaded afterwards and where we are allowed to create them. At the moment I'm not sure if the agreement also includes conversions done here on CarcC, but I'm afraid the publisher only wants to see conversion projects on CarcF. I've already asked PresetM about that.

I just wanted to inform you, in order that CarcC is on the safe side. I wouldn't like it if we got problems with HiG.

Nevertheless, congrats to your great conversion attempts Just a Bill! They look gorgeous! Also congrats to CarcCZ member Chmura for his attempt (also if the squares look a bit too corn fieldish for me ;) ) I also uploaded what came out during the conversion discussion on CarcF.

If it is really the case that HiG only allows conversion projects on CarcF, I'd love to see all you creative heads, who are interested in helping to do a high quality job (another condition in the agreement), on CarcF!
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 21:14

DaFees hat geschrieben: Merit to you Safari for the informative post. I've tried my hand printing some of the fan made conversions and while they were serviceable the quality definitely varied from one conversion to the next. Part of that may have been the fault of my printing process but either way I find the prospect of these conversions having some standardization on some level exciting.

Now I could probably try to read the discussion on CarcF but I'll ask my questions here so members here can benefit. Do the conversions only include CC2 to CC1 or what about conversions to the winter edition? Also do the rules say anything about single tile promos/expansions like the Spiel tiles? I mean would converting all the Spiel promo tiles count as one of the two biannual conversions or would each tile count as one of the conversions?
Decar hat geschrieben: Thanks for the informative post Safari, I thought this was the case. Please could people remove their images from the above posts until we've conformed with the publishers request.
Safari hat geschrieben: PresetM informed me that the agreement is only valid for CarcF, so unfortunately converting expansions somewhere else is considered against the rules. If you want to make conversions also here on CarcC, according to PresetM you need your own agreement with HiG. But he admitted that HiG probably stick to there "2 conversions per half a year" rule, and therefore it is unlikely that there will be more agreements.

However, both, PresetM and I, would be delighted if you joined the conversion work that will take place on CarcF. Especially if I look at the great work of Just a Bill, I'm sure it would be a pitty, if we missed out on your tallent!

The agreement doesn't say anything about which conversions are included. Sure, the intention was Carc II to classic Carc and vice versa, but it might be interpretet in another way in the future. This is why we paused all conversion projects in any direction at the moment.

Since we have to propose a conversion project to HiG before we are allowed to start the work on it, I guess one proposal for conversion counts as one regardless of the tiles the expansion contains. The publisher already accepted a conversion by PresetM that contained all the Abbot tiles from the new artwork, so I guess if we propose a conversion of the expansion "Spiel tiles", this will be counted as one conversion either.
danisthirty hat geschrieben: Hmm. So now we are in the situation where members of CarcF and permitted to do something that we at CarcC are not? With the upmost respect for all those involved, that stinks...
Decar hat geschrieben: Given that Carcassonne Central, doesn't have a process or policy in place to verify fan-expansions, I can't see how Carcassonne Central would even be considered by the publisher as an organised entity anyway. We have no Quality Control Process, HiG want to ensure that even fan-expansions meet their undefined quality criteria :(y)
aenima hat geschrieben: sure, but Carcassonne Central is international; Carcassonne Forum is only german...
teorically from here there are more fanmade stuffs that come out that could be permiddet, approvated or...
Decar hat geschrieben: We are not an organisation and as such we cannot have an agreement with HiG. If I agree something with HiG that agreement doesn't apply to you aenima :(y)

As you said Carcassonne Central is open to everyone :(y)
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Do 3. Aug 2017, 21:20

wolnic hat geschrieben: And my interpretation is that this only applies to reproducing expansions that have already been published by HiG (and others such as Z-Man?) (but in the other style), not alternative tiles/ideas such as most of the fan expansions.
Decar hat geschrieben: yes, it applies to CarcF :(y)
Amorpheus hat geschrieben: While it does stink that CarcC has not been granted the same treatment as CarcF, as a fan (of C1), I'm glad we at least have an option to join a free (German) forum to download C2 to C1 conversions that HiG has approved. Although navigating the forum isn't easy through translations, CarcF has welcomed CarcC input and collaborations on these conversions going forward. Maybe Safari can post links to the download pages on CarcF on this thread for people who are members of both forums?

For what it's worth, I think Just a Bill handled this thread properly by stating from the onset that he would not be sharing full tile sets for his conversions. And I do like the Abbot gardens he came up with.
seli82 hat geschrieben: Hallo an alle,
wir im deutschen Forum sind froh, dass es überhaupt nun erlaubt ist offizielle Erweiterungen um zu setzen. PresetM hat sich die Mühe gemacht die Erlaubnis zu bekommen.
Auch wenn CarcF meist deutsch ist, denke ich das es für alle Interessierten möglich ist sich dort anzumelden. Es gibt genug Mitglieder die auch englisch sprechen und sicher gern euch helfen.
Ich spreche leider kein englisch, bin auf "translate.google.de" angewiesen. Ich kann aus Erfahrung sagen. Man kann die Übersetzung verstehen.
Also traut euch und schaut mal ins Carcassonne-Forum.

Hier ist mal der Link zu Rechtliches zur Umsetzung von Erweiterungen des klassischen Carcassonne in Carcassonne II Edition und umgekehrt.

Hier ist der Link zu den fertigen von HIG genehmigten Erweiterungen, "Die Wachtürme" und "Der Abt"

Viel Spaß damit

Gruß Elisabeth
Amorpheus hat geschrieben: Danke Elisabeth :)
seli82 hat geschrieben: Ich habe dieses Thema in das deutsche Forum kopiert.
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von PresetM » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 00:57

Vielen Dank, Seli, für die Übersicht.

Es ist schon erstaunlich, was da so für Stilblüten gepostet werden...
Aber glücklicherweise hat ja Safari ein wenig für Übersicht gesorgt. Obwohl ich den Eindruck nicht los werde, dass man sich nach dem rechtlichen Disaster beim CarC-Adventskalender nun gleich wieder auf Glatteis begibt. Lerneffekt gleich Null.
Naja, mal sehen wie es ausgeht.

Vielleicht poste ich in CarcC mal noch ein paar Einzelheiten, um die Situation zu erklären. Vorausgesetzt, ich finde für eine längere Abhandlung in Englisch die Zeit...
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„Wenn wir bedenken, dass wir alle verrückt sind, ist das Leben erklärt.“ Mark Twain

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 15:11

Ich habe die Grafiken aus CarcC nicht mit eingefügt, bzw. im Beitrag von "Just a Bill" mit roten streifen versehen.
PresetM hat geschrieben:
Fr 4. Aug 2017, 00:57
Vielleicht poste ich in CarcC mal noch ein paar Einzelheiten, um die Situation zu erklären. Vorausgesetzt, ich finde für eine längere Abhandlung in Englisch die Zeit...
Wenn der 1. Post aus Rechtliches zur Umsetzung von Erweiterungen des klassischen Carcassonne in Carcassonne II Edition und umgekehrt ins englische übersetzt würde, währe es super.
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 15:18

Safari hat geschrieben: I can understand the bitter taste, which the agreement between HiG and CarcF brings to CarcC and you. However, just like Seli (and surely many other members as well on CarcF and CarC) I'm happy that we are allowed to do conversions at all. I agree that it might not be that easy for you to take part on conversion projects on CarcF, but if you want I can try to internationalise as much as possible. I just found out that there is a translation tool on CarcF that allows you to translate everything into English (and other languages as well). Actually it works very well!

Also I've already proposed to create a conversion sub forum where all the discussions about on-going and future conversion projects will be held. So, if we create such a sub forum (and I really hope so and will lobby for it), you know at any time where the hot discussions are going on. ;D

The final documents will be saved in a separate section of the download corner. Seli already gave you the link. Here it is again.

Also for me it is quite sad, that Just a Bill's great attempt of converting the 10th expansion was not taken into account until now. Unfortunately this is what happens when discussions go on on two different platforms at the same time. So maybe the centralisation of conversion projects on CarcF also can be a chance to funnel al the creativity and the ideas of all of us in order to create a high quality expansion.

At the moment the discussions on that specific translation project has been stopped because we have to wait for the permission from HiG. The publisher will hold a strategic meeting in September, where they probably will discuss if we are allowed to convert the 10th expansion for classic Carcassonne or not. What I want to say is that it is still not too late! All of you, who want to have a word in the discussion, still can take part. The discussion will go on once we have the permission from HiG. Here is the link to the topic on CarcF: "Mange frei!" for classic Carcassonne

Just A Bill, if you want, I guess it could be a good idea to also show the file of your conversion attempt on CarcF. Once it is there, people can look at it while we wait for the permission and have it in mind when the discussion starts again. :yellow-meeple:
wolnic hat geschrieben:
Safari hat geschrieben: I just found out that there is a translation tool on CarcF that allows you to translate everything into English (and other languages as well). Actually it works very well!
I've been using that since the CarcF site got rebranded a few months ago. I can only agree that for most things it's good enough to get a flavour of what's being discussed - sometimes the detail does get lost in the resulting bad grammar or failed word translation, though.

Personally, I'm quite happy that there is somewhere to act as a centralised point for the conversion of the official expansions, so as to avoid a situation where several individuals spend time and effort coming up with subtly different versions of the same thing.

I much prefer the way in which The Watchtowers have been drawn for CarcI, than the official CarcII version (I think it's the viewpoint that's all wrong), and hope to print them out and try them in a game over the next few weeks - now I've got some more blank tiles.
aenima hat geschrieben: Wow... I have seen the conversions.... good work! Also the rules well made! I'd like to know if the watchtower rules have some official clarificatin from hig... and I'd like to know if we can share all of this and if I can put them into the RCA (the italian CAR).
Decar hat geschrieben: If there's one thing Carcassonne needs it's subtly different versions of the same thing!

If artists were dissuaded by other people's creations, nothing new would get developed.

We've not heard from 'Just a Bill' in a while: I hope you've not been dissuaded. Your work is always welcome here.
danisthirty hat geschrieben: I've mentioned in plenty of previous posts that I'm not really fussed about the new artwork and am equally happy to play with either version. As such, the idea of converting expansions between artwork versions isn't something I feel strongly about. I get why it's important for some people, but for me, I don't care.

What I DO care about is the community here at CarcC and everyone who is part of it. Under most circumstances we can quietly co-exist with our sister-site CarcF and there have been several fun projects of note that have encouraged collaboration between the two sites. However, I will admit that it can be frustrating at times trying to keep up with everything that's taking place on a German forum for a German game with German publishers who seem increasingly oblivious to the fact that there are now many people OUTSIDE of Germany who follow their game just as enthusiastically as those inside it.

(Side note: let it be known [for those who don't already know] that trying to keep a "complete" Carcassonne collection and living outside of Germany is hell. And very expensive. With most of that money going to people on eBay who have picked up the latest German exclusive locally for a reasonable price and then unwittingly (perhaps) forced the rest of the world to fight for it and walked away with something like 1000% profit – and refused to accept payment via PayPal)

This said, I count myself very lucky to have met a number of CarcF's regulars in Essen last year and had a great time with them. I even met members of HiG and got on well with them too, AND they paid for my dinner and beers! But that's not what this is about...

If CarcF have been given special permission to do something and our best solution is that members of CarcC should merrily make their way over to CarcF to be part of the action then why do we need CarcC at all? Perhaps we should just pull down the blinds, lock the door and leave a little note on the window that says "[tt]See you at CarcF![/tt] :)"

Apologies if I'm being dramatic, but it can be pretty painful when you feel strongly about a certain community and work hard for it, despite publisher bias towards another. Especially when there are only two to begin with! I guess this has just touched a nerve for me, and I'm deeply concerned about where we appear to be heading or what's going to happen when we get there.
Just a Bill hat geschrieben:
Decar hat geschrieben: We've not heard from 'Just a Bill' in a while: I hope you've not been dissuaded. Your work is always welcome here.
Thank you for the encouragement, Decar. I'm not really dissuaded, just overwhelmed. A lot of information has appeared on this topic recently, I've got a metric crapton of things going on in real life, and I'm feeling guilty about my slow rate of progress on the CAR 7.5. There are multiple things to respond to in this thread, and I've been balking at the level of effort needed to get my thoughts organized and my graphics updated.

I should probably break my responses into two or three posts, so I'll just start with my question for you: Do you still think we need to hide the images we've added to this thread? That would certainly make it harder for new readers to follow. I intentionally limited what I posted, to keep it from being usable in any tile-making effort: I posted only two of 20 draft, sample tiles (I've only even created about four so far — an effort which is now on hold), and I deliberately downsampled them such that if they were blown up to actual tile resolution they would look lame and blurry.

Given Safari's suggestion that I actually post them to CarC, are you comfortable with us keeping this thread intact and understandable for the time being?
Zuletzt geändert von seli am Fr 4. Aug 2017, 19:17, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Bild Ich liebe es Landschaften aus den Karten zu bauen.

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Safari
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von Safari » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 17:41

Danke, Seli für das Übertragen der Nachrichten!
(Nur als kleine Randbemerkung: Das Thema auf CarcC ist öffentlich zugänglich, man bräuchte als nur den Link dorthin und könnte auch ohne Anmeldung alles lesen.)

Jetzt haben wir genau die Situation auf CarcC, die ich befürchtet hab: Wichtige Mitglieder sind beleidigt, weil die ohnehin schon benachteiligten internationalen Fans, die jedoch in der Überzahl seien, noch mehr benachteiligt werden und die deutschen Fans, wie immer bevorzugt. Danisthirty schreibt polemisch, dass man gleich alle Mitglieder nach CarcF verfrachten könnte und CarcC mit dem Hinweis "Wir sehen uns auf CarcF!" schließen.

Persönlich kann ich die Frustration verstehen. Rat hab ich auf die schnelle aber auch keinen.
Liebe Grüße

Safari

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Das ist Häschen. Kopiere Häschen in deine Signatur um ihm zu helfen, die ganze Welt zu bevölkern.

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seli
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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von seli » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 19:16

Ich habe leider auch keinen Rat. CarcC-Mitglieder können die rechtlichen Gegebenheiten in Deutschland nicht kennen. HiG ist deutsch und wir sind deutsch. Daher kamen wir natürlich schneller auf den Gedanken, dass wir um Erlaubnis fragen müssen. Es hätte theoretisch auch anders laufen können. Wenn ein CarcC-Mitglied vor PresetM mit HiG Kontakt aufgenommen hätte. Wer weis was dann gewesen währe.

Mir ist bekannt, dass auch ein Link gereicht hätte. Ich dachte, dass evtl. CarcC-Mitglieder auch hier mit uns über das Thema diskutieren wollen.
Bild Ich liebe es Landschaften aus den Karten zu bauen.

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von PresetM » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 20:02

Wie gesagt, ich hatte in meinem Schreiben an HiG auch die beiden anderen Foren erwähnt, für die ich ja nicht sprechen kann. Aber HiG hat natürlich nur unser Anliegen berücksichtigt, weil es kein anderes gab. Das war nun mal so.

Und den Leuten auf CarC (und auch auf CarcCZ) muss man es dann recht deutlich sagen: Ihr habt auch ein Forumsmanagement, das hätte sich ja um eine Klärung mit HiG bemühen können. Aber darauf seid Ihr garnicht gekommen (oder habt es ignoriert), dass ihr Euch in einer rechtlichen Grauzone bewegt.

Und jetzt sind wieder alle anderen Schuld. Vor allem wir, die korrekt reagiert haben.
Mein Mitleid hält sich da sehr in Grenzen.
„Der Mensch ist bereit, für jede Idee zu sterben, vorausgesetzt, dass ihm die Idee nicht ganz klar ist.“ Gilbert Keith Chesterton
„Wenn wir bedenken, dass wir alle verrückt sind, ist das Leben erklärt.“ Mark Twain

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von maik63de » Fr 4. Aug 2017, 20:12

PresetM hat geschrieben:
Fr 4. Aug 2017, 20:02
Und jetzt sind wieder alle anderen Schuld. Vor allem wir, die korrekt reagiert haben.
Mein Mitleid hält sich da sehr in Grenzen.
Ich gebe dir da vollkommen Recht.... Und da wir gerade dabei sind, nochmals tausend Dank, PresetM... :ymhug:
Gruß Maik
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Etwas Gescheiteres kann einer doch nicht treiben in dieser schönen Welt, als zu spielen.
Henrik Ibsen (1828 - 1906), norwegischer Dramatiker

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von Safari » Sa 5. Aug 2017, 18:55

Naja, das Ärgernis beruht eh nicht darauf, das wir ihnen ein Schnippchen geschlagen hätten, indem wir früher gefragt haben. Ich denke es beruht darauf, dass ich erzählt habe, dass sie in CarcC gerne auch ein solches Abkommen abschließen können, dieses deiner Vermutung nach [Edit. 7.8.], PresetM, nach aber höchstwahrscheinlich geringe Chancen hat.

Hinzu kommt der generelle Frust, weil wir viel näher an der Quelle sitzen und daher einige Vorteile haben. Zumindest so der Eindruck auf CarcC, ob das wirklich so ist, wage ich nicht zu beurteilen.

Ich denke, um die Wogen zu glätten wäre es gut, das Abkommen zu übersetzen. Man sieht ja deutlich den Charakter des "Es muss sich bei offiziellen Konvertierungen um Umsetzungen von hoher Qualität handeln". Daher auch die Konzentration auf ein Forum und eine Arbeitsstelle. Ich denke, das kam bisher nicht so auf CarcC an und wenn die dortigen Mitglieder das auch verstehen, was der Verlag damit intendiert hat, sehen sie auch leichter ein, warum die Konzentration auf ein Forum.

Ich werd mich mal an einer Übersetzung versuchen.
Zuletzt geändert von Safari am Mo 7. Aug 2017, 16:27, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Liebe Grüße

Safari

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(O.o )
(> < )
Das ist Häschen. Kopiere Häschen in deine Signatur um ihm zu helfen, die ganze Welt zu bevölkern.

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Re: Thoughts on converting C2 tiles to C1 artwork style

Beitrag von Safari » Sa 5. Aug 2017, 20:41

So, jetzt hab ich den Abkommenstext einmal übersetzt. Vielleicht ist es besser, wenn jemand wie PresetM oder Kettlefish den Text auf CarcC veröffentlicht. Für die rechtssprachliche Richtlichkeit der englischen Version übernehme ich bitte kein Gewähr.

Wir sollten uns übrigens auch noch Gedanken über eine mögliche englische Version des Regelblattes machen (außer es steht außer Frage, dass englische Regeln nicht gemacht werden). Bspw: Sollen wir das gestalten oder CarcC? Welche Regelvorlage wird verwendet: Unsere oder die von CarcC?

-- Edit: Text der Übersetzung wurde auf Wunsch entfernt und Maik zugesendet. --
Zuletzt geändert von Safari am Mo 7. Aug 2017, 16:25, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Liebe Grüße

Safari

(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < )
Das ist Häschen. Kopiere Häschen in deine Signatur um ihm zu helfen, die ganze Welt zu bevölkern.

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